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Subject: Hay Theory of
History
Created by Andy Horton on 10 Feb 2005
10:27:28
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Message
#1 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 10:27:28
by Andy
Horton   
Dyson, Freeman
The technologies which
have had the most profound effects on human life
are
usually simple. A good example of a simple
technology with profound
historical
consequences is hay. Nobody knows who invented
hay, the idea of
cutting grass in the autumn
and storing it in large enough quantities
to
keep horses and cows alive through the
winter. All we know is that the
technology of
hay was unknown to the Roman Empire but was known
to every
village of medieval Europe. Like many
other crucially important
technologies, hay
emerged anonymously during the so-called Dark
Ages.
According to the Hay Theory of History,
the invention of hay was the
decisive event
which moved the center of gravity of urban
civilization from
the Mediterranean basin to
Northern and Western Europe. The Roman Empire
did
not need hay because in a Mediterranean
climate the grass grows well enough
in winter
for animals to graze. North of the Alps, great
cities dependent on
horses and oxen for motive
power could not exist without hay. So it was
hay
that allowed populations to grow and
civilizations to flourish among the
forests of
Northern Europe. Hay moved the greatness of Rome
to Paris and
London, and later to Berlin and
Moscow and New York.
Freeman Dyson Infinite
in All Directions, Harper and Row, New York, 1988,
p
135.
http://naturalscience.com/dsqhome.html
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Message
#2 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 10:44:52
by Brenda
Very interesting.
thanks
-----
Original Message -----
From: "British Marine
Life Study Society"
<Glaucus@hotmail.com>
To:
<british-history@smartgroups.com>
Sent:
Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:26 AM
Subject:
[British-History] Hay Theory of
History
> Dyson, Freeman
> The
technologies which have had the most profound
effects on human life
> are
> usually
simple. A good example of a simple technology with
profound
> historical consequences is hay.
Nobody knows who invented hay, the idea of
>
cutting grass in the autumn and storing it in
large enough quantities to
> keep horses and
cows alive through the winter. All we know is that
the
> technology of hay was unknown to the
Roman Empire but was known to every
>
village of medieval Europe. Like many other
crucially important
> technologies, hay
emerged anonymously during the so-called Dark
Ages.
> According to the Hay Theory of
History, the invention of hay was the
>
decisive event which moved the center of gravity
of urban civilization
> from
> the
Mediterranean basin to Northern and Western
Europe. The Roman Empire
> did
> not
need hay because in a Mediterranean climate the
grass grows well
> enough
> in winter
for animals to graze. North of the Alps, great
cities dependent
> on
> horses and
oxen for motive power could not exist without hay.
So it was
> hay
> that allowed
populations to grow and civilizations to flourish
among the
> forests of Northern Europe. Hay
moved the greatness of Rome to Paris and
>
London, and later to Berlin and Moscow and New
York.
>
> Freeman Dyson Infinite in
All Directions, Harper and Row, New York,
1988,
> p
> 135.
>
http://naturalscience.com/dsqhome.html
>
>
>
>
>
> If you want to share pictures,
use the calendar, or start a questionnaire
>
visit
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/british-history
>
>
To leave the group, email:
british-history-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
>
Report abuse
>
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>
>
>
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Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date:
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Message
#3 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 11:22:33
by Andy
Horton
Hello,
I am having my doubts about
this theory already.
The Romans could have
fed their military animals grain to keep them
through
the winter?
If they can plant
and harvest wheat and barley, why should the
Romans not
have harvested a meadow of
grass?
Or did the Roman military machine
actually require huge areas of arable
crops for
fuel for their horses? As well as food for their
men.
It is an attractive theory, but is it
all that it is cracked up to
be?
Cheers
Andy
Horton.
glaucus@hotmail.com
History of
Shoreham,
England
History.htm
><<
( ( ( ' >
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Message
#4 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 13:16:13
by Andy
Horton
Hello,
My doubts over this have now
changed to thinking it is a load of
rubbish
from a distinguished scientist. It
seems an appealing theory at first? From
the
very beginning, domestic animals would have been
fed fodder collected
from the wild and left
over and surplus crops
grown.
Cheers
Andy Horton.
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Message
#5 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 13:43:01
by edwin
I
think the theory is too sweeping. For example, the
Romans were well acquainted with straw and thus
the handling of fibrous material in large
quantities. Doesn't the Med's climate also mean
limits to growth through drought. Anyone ever seen
lush meadows around it? I have certainly seen
animals eating out of haynets so feeding is done
nowadays.
Seem to remember also that there
is evidence for leaves (elm, lime?) being gathered
for winter feed. Grass cured to hay but still
stuck in the ground would also have been available
in the North since pastorialism began. Perhaps it
was the portability of hay that was the key in
that local monopolies could have been created
thereby enhancing the power holder's influence and
control of resources. There is certainly capital
investment required for hay farming, efficient
scyhtes and cart and storage.
Edwin
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Message
#6 of 10: Date Posted: 10 Feb 2005 13:46:29
by edwin
<My doubts over this have now changed to
thinking it is a load of rubbish
from a
distinguished scientist. It seems an appealing
theory at first? From
the very beginning,
domestic animals would have been fed fodder
collected
from the wild and left over and
surplus crops grown.>
Certainly but I am
not sure that we shouldn't still look at the
economic implications ot the creation of the
wherewithal to turn hay into a marketable
crop.
Edwin
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Message
#7 of 10: Date Posted: 11 Feb 2005 00:56:40
by Andy
Horton
Hello,
The problem is that hay
meadows were not a new invention. They were used
by
the Romans and probably ever since Man
ceased to be nomadic and
settled
down.
The theory is attractive,
but the logical conclusions are based on
an
inaccurate premise? It might have been a
problem for Attila the Hun, finding
feed for
his cavalry? Storage of food for the colder winter
months for
humans must have been a problem from
the beginning of civilisation.
Still it is
worth thinking about.
Cheers
Andy
Horton.
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Message
#8 of 10: Date Posted: 11 Feb 2005 13:08:45
by edwin
In
a message dated 11/02/05 00:57:50 GMT Standard
Time, Glaucus@hotmail.com
writes:
It
might have been a problem for Attila the Hun,
finding
feed for his cavalry?
I have
seen it claimed, eg by John Keegan in History of
War, that the end of
the open grass areas was a
natural limit of the spread of nomadic
cavalry's
excursions as they couldn't get
enough fodder in arable areas. Also aren't
the
Turks supposed to have destroyed arable
agriculture as they penetrated into
the Eastern
Roman Empire ion order to extend
grazing?
Edwi
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Message
#9 of 10: Date Posted: 15 Feb 2005 21:05:02
by jez
on
10/2/05 10:26 AM, British Marine Life Study
Society wrote:
> Dyson,
Freeman
<big snip>
I took the
liberty of forwarding this to a friend who is
expert in Roman
history.
Here is his
reply.
---
Hallo Cousin
>All
we know is that the
> technology of hay was
unknown to the Roman Empire
My first
thoughts were that this was an elegant windup, but
the
book and its author appear to be
genuine.
As I suspected, our earliest
authority, Cato the Elder (234-139 BCE),
makes
mention of hay in his 'De Agri Cultura',
LIII, in a fairly offhand manner,
indicating
that this is no new-fangled or exotic
process:
"Cut hay in season, and be careful
not to wait too long. Harvest before the
seed
ripens, and store the best hay by itself for the
oxen to eat during the
spring ploughing, before
you feed clover."
Varro (116-17 BCE), in
his 'Rerum Rusticarum' mentions hay (I.xxxi.4):
"All
fodder crops should be cut [between the
rising of the Pleiades and the
summer
solstice], first clover, mixed fodder, and vetch,
and last hay." and
again (II.vii.7) for horses:
"The breeding stud of horses is best fed
in
meadows on grass, and in stalls and
enclosures on dry hay...".
Our most
exhaustive primary source on Roman agriculture and
husbandry,
Columella (c. 70 CE) mentions hay in
'De Re Rustica' (II.xvii.6) as a matter
of
course in all meadows, in XI.ii.40 he suggests
that the rising of the
Pleiades during the
second week of May is a good time for the
hay-harvest,
and goes on to tell you how much
by area and weight a good reaper can cut in
a
day. In XI.ii.99-100 he expounds on the amounts
and proportions of
different kinds of fodder to
give oxen during different months.
I've
just looked hay up in my dictionary, and see that
Horace (65-8 BCE)
says 'fenum habet in cornu'
('he has hay on his horns'), meaning a beast
(or
a man, for that matter) is
dangerous.
One wonders whence Mr Dyson's
confident assertions that they didn't
have
hay.
Perhaps he assumes that, because
of his (inaccurate) notions of the
Italian
climate, they didn't need to make hay
and therefore didn't make hay. He
doesn't seem
to know much about animal husbandry either: you
can certainly
feed a horse or a draught-ox on
nothing but grass, but if you're working
them
they rapidly go out of condition unless you
enhance their calorie
intake with hard feed.
I've never come across this 'Hay Theory of
History'
before, but if it makes any real sense
it will deal with the logistics of
fodder
transportation for cavalry mounts and baggage
train beasts as a major
constraint on the
mobility of armies - not on daft suppositions that
a
people like the Romans never bothered to
acquire something because they
didn't need it.
Not a quality I associate with Romans,
personally.
Hope that interests. Quote me
if you like.
Nick.
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Message
#10 of 10: Date Posted: 15 Feb 2005
23:07:48 by JRG
Wood
If
hay was unknown by the Roman Empire what about
that 'little heard of
reference' to someone
'not at all well known' receiving gifts from kings
and
shepherds whilst lying in a manger, which
is something that holds hay??
-----
Original Message -----
From: "webmistress"
<jezreell@mac.com>
To:
<british-history@smartgroups.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:05 PM
Subject: Re:
[British-History] Hay Theory of
History
> on 10/2/05 10:26 AM,
British Marine Life Study Society
wrote:
>
>> Dyson,
Freeman
>
> <big
snip>
>
> I took the liberty of
forwarding this to a friend who is expert in
Roman
> history.
>
> Here is his
reply.
>
> ---
> Hallo
Cousin
>
>>All we know is that
the
>> technology of hay was unknown to
the Roman Empire
>
> My first thoughts
were that this was an elegant windup, but
the
> book and its author appear to be
genuine.
>
> As I suspected, our
earliest authority, Cato the Elder (234-139
BCE),
> makes
> mention of hay in his
'De Agri Cultura', LIII, in a fairly offhand
manner,
> indicating that this is no
new-fangled or exotic process:
>
>
"Cut hay in season, and be careful not to wait too
long. Harvest before
> the
> seed
ripens, and store the best hay by itself for the
oxen to eat during
> the
> spring
ploughing, before you feed
clover."
>
> Varro (116-17 BCE), in
his 'Rerum Rusticarum' mentions hay
(I.xxxi.4):
> "All
> fodder crops
should be cut [between the rising of the Pleiades
and the
> summer solstice], first clover,
mixed fodder, and vetch, and last hay."
>
and
> again (II.vii.7) for horses: "The
breeding stud of horses is best fed in
>
meadows on grass, and in stalls and enclosures on
dry hay...".
>
> Our most exhaustive
primary source on Roman agriculture and
husbandry,
> Columella (c. 70 CE) mentions
hay in 'De Re Rustica' (II.xvii.6) as a
>
matter
> of course in all meadows, in
XI.ii.40 he suggests that the rising of
the
> Pleiades during the second week of May
is a good time for the hay-harvest,
> and
goes on to tell you how much by area and weight a
good reaper can cut
> in
> a day. In
XI.ii.99-100 he expounds on the amounts and
proportions of
> different kinds of fodder
to give oxen during different
months.
>
> I've just looked hay up in
my dictionary, and see that Horace (65-8
BCE)
> says 'fenum habet in cornu' ('he has
hay on his horns'), meaning a beast
>
(or
> a man, for that matter) is
dangerous.
>
> One wonders whence Mr
Dyson's confident assertions that they didn't
have
> hay.
> Perhaps he assumes that,
because of his (inaccurate) notions of the
>
Italian
> climate, they didn't need to make
hay and therefore didn't make hay. He
>
doesn't seem to know much about animal husbandry
either: you can certainly
> feed a horse or
a draught-ox on nothing but grass, but if you're
working
> them they rapidly go out of
condition unless you enhance their calorie
>
intake with hard feed. I've never come across this
'Hay Theory of History'
> before, but if it
makes any real sense it will deal with the
logistics of
> fodder transportation for
cavalry mounts and baggage train beasts as
a
> major
> constraint on the mobility
of armies - not on daft suppositions that
a
> people like the Romans never bothered to
acquire something because they
> didn't need
it. Not a quality I associate with Romans,
personally.
>
> Hope that interests.
Quote me if you like.
>
>
Nick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you want to share pictures,
use the calendar, or start a questionnaire
>
visit
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/british-history
>
>
To leave the group, email:
british-history-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
>
Report abuse
>
http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D377746&mid%3D700
>
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