Vernal Equinox  20 March 2001  13:14 GMT

http://www.treasure-troves.com/astro/VernalEquinox.html
tides.htm

The first web page has got historic records of the vernal equinox.

the second page has links to tides information.

 Royal Escape (notes)

NB:  When King Charles II left from Shoreham for Fécamp on Wednesday  15
October 1651,  it was 3 days before the Full Moon
 

Cheers

Andy Horton
British Marine Life Study Society  (formed 6 June 1990)
EMail:Glaucus@hotmail.com

  SPOOKEY  ;-)<

Hello,

Not really. The Pepys diary said "they left when the tide was right".  I
have not got the tide tables that far back to check the precise time.
Shoreham harbour had a tendency to silt up, and it may not have been
possible to leave on the neap tides. Still 3 days before the Full Moon
would have been about halfway between neaps and springs and my estimated
time he left would have been mid to late morning (needs proper checking
though). The main debate would seem to be exactly where the "Surprise" was
moored up.

Astronomists will know that the tidal heights and range were much greater
in the 17th century, somewhere near their maximum.

Cheers

Andy Horton. 

Tide Times Correction

 Note that 3 days before the Full Moon on 1October 2001 this year the high tide will be at 11:39 am (UT)

This is incorrect. The time is BST.   The time should be GMT (UT) for a comparison. Sorry for the error.

The tide times were from WXTides.

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/1195/download.html
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/1195/prg/wxtide26.zip
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/1195/
http://www.wxtide32.com/

Cheers

Andy Horton
British Marine Life Study Society  (formed 6 June 1990)
EMail:Glaucus@hotmail.com

To start with a nit-picking note, surely the Vernal Equinox is in spring and
even with our current upheaval in seasons, 15 October is still autumn.

I suspect that the proximity of the date to the equinox was not paramount in
the minds of those trying to find a boat to get the king to France. As the
search for suitable transport had been on since his defeat on 3rd September,
the priority was to remove him from the country and the tempting prospect of
a £1000 reward for his capture.

Having said that, Col Gounter's very reliable eye witness account describes
the scene in the early morning of 15 October 1651:
"The boatman in the meantime went to provide necessaries, and they persuaded
the King to take some rest; he did in his clothes, and my Lord Wilmot with
him, till towards two o'clock; then the Colonel called them up, and showed
them how the time went by his watch; horses being led the back way to the
beach, they came to the boat and found all ready. The Colonel then took his
leave ... The Colonel waited there with the horses in readiness, in case
anything expected happened.
   "At eight o'clock I saw them on sail, and it was the afternoon before
they were out of sight. The wind (oh Providence!) held very good till the
next morning, to ten o'clock, brought them to a place in Normandy called
Fackham, some three miles from Haura de Grace, 15th October, Wednesday. They
were no sooner landed, but the wind turned, and a violent storm did arise,
insomuch that the boatman was forced to cut his cable, lost his anchor to
save his boat, for which he required of me eight pounds, and had it. The
boat was back again at Chichester by Fryday to take his freight."

Charles II gave his own version of events to Samuel Pepys in 1660 and to
anyone else who would listen from then on. Pepys wrote, using the king's
words: "About four o'clock in the morning, myself and the company before
named went towards Shoreham, taking the master of the ship with us, on
horseback, behind one of our company, and came to the vessel's side, which
was not above sixty ton. But it being low water, and the vessel lying dry, I
and my Lord Wilmot got up with a ladder into her, and went and lay down in
the little cabin, till the tide came to fetch us off. ...
   "So about seven o'clock in the morning, it being high water, we went out
of the port; but the master being bound for Poole, loaden with sea-coal,
because he would not have it seen from Shoreham that he did not go his
intended voyage, but stood all the day, with a very easy sail, towards the
Isle of Wight (only my Lord Wilmot and myself, of the company, on board).
And as we were sailing, the master came to me, and desired me that I would
persuade his men to use their endeavours with me to get him to set us on
shore in France, the better to cover him from any suspicion thereof. ..."

Prior to this, Gounter made the arrangements with Captain Nicholas
Tattersall, whose spelling he rearranged and the details help to fill out
the picture. Writing in the third person, Gounter recalled: "After this, the
Colonel began to treat with the boatman, Tettersfield by name, asking him in
what readiness he was; he answered, 'He could not be off that night,
because, for safety, he had brought his vessel into a Creake, ["breake" in
Parry's version] and the tide had forsake it, so that it was aground.' It is
observable, that all the while this business had been in agitation, to this
very time, the wind had been contrary. The King then opening the window,
took notice that the wind was turned, and told the master of the ship;
whereupon, because of that, and the clearness of the night, the Colonel
offered ten pounds more to the man to get off at once; but that could not
be.... "

I apologise for clogging up the list with this amount of detail but it is a
preliminary to asking a question of anyone still reading! We are putting on
an exhibition at Marlipins Museum from 25th May to 30th June to commemorate
the 350th anniversary of Charles's escape, and it would be very useful to be
precise about the location of the boat in this final chapter. The current
view is that he did not leave from Shoreham as we know it, but from the area
now occupied by Hove lagoon, nearer the mouth of the Adur as it was then.
Please let me have any informed comment on this that I can include in the
exhibition.

Also if anyone to whom I have not already written has access to good 17th
century illusrations of relevant parts of Sussex which could illuminate the
exhibition, please let me know.

Helen Poole
Senior Museums Officer
Sussex Archaeological Society
Marlipins Museum
High Street, Shoreham by Sea, BN43 5DA
 
 
 
 

From: "Helen Poole" <smomich@sussexpast.co.uk>
Message text written by INTERNET:sussexpast@yahoogroups.com
>I was interested to read the notes about Charles II leaving Shoreham three
days after the vernal equinox. I found the information on tides useful as it
tallies with the contemproary accounts which follow.<
[snipped - see the original message]

Hello,

Escape of Charles II

I said 3 days before the Full Moon.

The web site addresses have a historical interest because they have the information to find out the state of the moon and with a bit more research the tides could be worked out.

If Colonel Gunter's report could be relied upon? some idea could have been worked out about the extent of the silting up of Shoreham harbour at the time.

It is interesting that in the report the clearness of the night is mentioned which is confirmed by the imminence of the Full Moon, so we can say that it was not overcast.

Seven o'clock in the morning the tide was high. This was before the railways (Universal Time), so I can guess, can I?, that this was London time, which is very convenient. Note that 3 days before the Full Moon on 1 October 2001 this year the high tide will be at 11:39 am (BST) and at 7:00 am it would below 2 metres, not far off low water so even today the vessel would have been unable to leave. However, it may not have needed top high water to leave, which is why I estimated late morning (based on 20th century tidal patterns).

My astronomy and mathematics is not that good to work out the tide times then and the Tide Tables on WX Tides only go back to 1970. Anybody who knows about these things, could answer a simple question on whether the high spring tides occur at the approxmiately the same times in the 17th century as the late 20th century or not? e.g. around midday and midnight for Shoreham.

However, the Glaucus CD-ROM 2000 has the WX Tides charts on and I can include the equinox and solstice information but this only goes back to the 18th century, and I would hope to have this ready for World Oceans Day 2001 on 2 June 2001 at Coronation green, and we may (we have one, but it may break down) have a computer available to display this information at the Marlipins, if you want to find the space.

wod2001.htm
Adur World Oceans Day 2001 page  (the full details will not be included until after 2 April 2001)

We also have some longshore drift information, but to calculate the position of the medieval outlook is conjectural and several different hypotheses can be introduced.
There is some information at:
ancmap1.htm

giving the only research I know showing the probably location of the medieval harbour outlet to the sea further west than the current harbour entrance, and this I agree with and seems just about right.

For the reference, put the cursor over the web page resconstructed map from geological evidence of alluvial deposits etc. The current sands undersea could shift.  The original document you should have in the Marlipins?

 It was certainly not at Hove Lagoon, as it would not have said they left from a place than Shoreham like Fishersgate or Aldrington (probably) and that there is some indications that the entrance was more to the west in the vicinity of the lost settlement of Pende. (This would take a very long explanation.)

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Glaucus@hotmail.com
Adur Valley
Adur.htm

Reply

Hello,

This is not really my perogative, but I must admit not sussing out immediately why The King Charles II Exhibition at the Marlipins, High Street, Shoreham-by-Sea, begins on 25 May 2001, in the week before the Adur Festival officially starts on 2 June 2001.

There is, of course, a plum reason to include Oak Apple Day on 29 May !

The Marlipins is usually closed on Mondays (e.g. 28 May 2001).

Cheers

Andy Horton
(Shoreham).
Glaucus@hotmail.com
Shoreham.html

Hello,

Whoops ! I missed this as well. Charles II landed at Dover (1660), 4 days
before his30th birthday, hence May 25th.

Street lamps were not in use at the time. I wonder what the internal lamps,
or cressets looked like in the 17th century?

Cheers

Andy Horton
Glaucus@hotmail.com

Hello Michael,

29 May

The wearing of a sprig of oak on the anniversary of Charlie's crowning showed that a person was loyal to the restored king. Those who refused to wear an oak-sprig were often set upon, and children would challenge others to show their sprig or have their bottoms pinched. Consequently, this day became known as Pinch-Bum-Day. In parts of England where oak-apples are known as shick-shacks, the day is also known as Shick-Shack Day. It is also likely that the royal association conceals a pagan tradition of tree worship.

Full Information at:
http://englishculture.about.com/aboutuk/englishculture/library/weekly/aa052500a.htm?terms=oak+apple+day

Cheers

Andy Horton

1752 Calendar

http://www.calendarhome.com/cgi-shl/tyc.pl?century=17&year=52&month=9&change=1

Cheers

Andy Horton.
 

Hello Colin,

David
Ewing Duncan, 'The Calendar: The 5000 Year Struggle to
Align the Clock and the Heavens and What Happened to
the Missing Ten Days'pub Fourth Estate, London 1998.

Thanks for your helpful pointer to this book. Always with books refs, I find the the ISBN helps, if possible, but there should be enough information.

However
<http://doompalm.westsussex.gov.uk/cgi-bin/wsussex-cat.sh>
does not have an entry form for the ISBN.

Record Control No.:    1857027213
http://doompalm.westsussex.gov.uk/cgi-bin/wsussex-cat.sh?enqtype=AUTHOR&enqpara1=display&rcn=1857027213&sec_code=1&media_code=2&title=Calendar+:+the+5000-year+Struggle+to+Align+the+C&etitle=Duncan+David+Ewing&text=DUNCAN+DAVID+EWING&dtext=Duncan%2C+David+Ewing&slist=false

There is no excuse if you eyesight is failing on this one. WSCC has a spoken word version.

Thanks to Martin Snow for pointing out that WSCC Library is now on the Internet. Now there is no excuse for not returning my library books on time.

I have not read anything about Sussex time anywhere?  before the onset of GMT, were the Sussex people using the same time as Londoners on approximately the same longtitude?

How accurate were the clocks in the mid-17th century? Minute hands were not introduced until 1670.

Where is the oldest clock in Sussex?
 
 

This message was sent out at 12:25  Coordinated Universal Time.

Cheers

Andy Horton
British Marine Life Study Society  (formed 6 June 1990)
EMail:Glaucus@hotmail.com

Hello Barbie,

Thank you for your account of King Charles II escape.

I know that there are several accounts of the escape in the vessel Surprise.

It was about 20 years ago that I read this up, and I just remember that the accounts varied a little bit according to their detail. The accounts used to be housed at Worthing Library, but they were not all available last time I visited to find the accounts. I would like to discover their location to have a look at them.

The procedure will then be to amass:

1) written accounts of the escape and when they were written down (maybe 9 years later?).
2) other information including the tide times, tidal range, geological information on the position of Shoreham harbour etc.
3) general historical information about how the scene would have appeared in 1651, e.g. what size is a coal brig of C17 ? (Can anybody help with this?)

Then, just in case I have overlooked something, I will send the file to SussexPast Files Vault. I doubt if the evidence will prove conclusive in all respects, but perhaps beyond reasonable doubt?

For going on with, it is interesting that the reporter transcribes the French destination port in an anglicised version as Feckham. This location has always been thought of as Fécamp. I would be interested in the toponymy of Fécamp.

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Glaucus@hotmail.com
History of Shoreham
History.htm
(The account of the escape on this page is inadequate and will have to be revised.)
 

The map nearest in date to 1651 is Dummer and Wiltshaw's 1698 survey of
harbours on the south coast, copies in British Library, K Mar III, 67, and
Bodleian (ref. not to hand, probably in Rawl.). This places the mouth west
of Portslade, probably west of the 1815 mouth on the map in Brookfield. It
also shows the 'late outlet' 500-600 yards further west - suggesting that
some recent event (storm?) had shifted the mouth east. See also John
Seller, ed., The English Pilot (1671).

John
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Hello John,

Thank you for your message. It was very interesting.

There is a lot of information on the appearance of the coast. The Tide information is not available yet, and as this is the vital information I will not put down the initial summary of the facts until I receive these.

Procedure:

1)  Put down all the relevant facts.
2)  Selection of the the reliable facts.
3)  Synthesis and report.

Then comes the tricky bit. There will probably be at least two hypotheses of what happened. However, I am moving away from the island bar (orr at least of it being important), so there may only be one explanation that is valid. This will not effect the 1651 outlets, as the Tide information should help with this, but the sequence of how and when Shoreham beach was formed is an extension of the debate.

I have read Brookfield and seen quite a few reconstructed maps, but until I get the Tides information I cannot get near the conclusion  of the actual entrance. I expect to be able to get a central location for 1651 and then it could be a mile each side, probably, but the will be an possible error of more than that, so nobody will be wrong. Margins of error and their reasons will be included.

Then I will let the SussexPast forum have the facts, and they can pull them to bits, decide what conclusion they want.

This was not planned. I have been thinking about it for 20 years, and it was only when I could sleeted in on the Vernal Equinox, I decided to investigate this. Then Helen Poole pointed out the 350th anniversary, so I thought I would get the accurate Tide figures. First of all, I was just going to get a rough guide, but now I want to get the precise figures from Proudman. As far as I know this hasn't been done before.

I have not heard of John Seller, ed., The English Pilot (1671) and it would help to know this information, and I think the 1698 map (copy) should be in the Marlipins, but it is not open yet.

Fossils found on Shoreham Beach seem to be Echinocorys scutatus and those from the current chalk platform east of Brighton marina seem to be Spondylus spinosa from personal observation and identification. Both these seem to be from the Santonian Age (87.5 to 84 million years ago) and I expect the flint pebbles on Shoreham beach not to have been transported all that far, although expert geologists may be able to shed more light on where they came from.

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Glaucus@hotmail.com
Adur Valley
Adur.htm

The first HMS Shoreham was built in Shoreham and launched in 1693. This was a 362 ton veseel and 85 feet long.

Tattersall's  Surprise 60 ton coal brig was scarcely bigger than a local modern day shallow water  fishing vessel.

Andy Horton.
Glaucus@hotmail.com
Adur Valley
Adur.htm

The first HMS Shoreham was built in Shoreham and launched in 1693. This was a 362 ton veseel and 85 feet long.

Tattersall's  Surprise 60 ton coal brig was scarcely bigger than a local modern day shallow water  fishing vessel.